,
I think one would be hard pressed to say that the eternal son-ship view, as Tim thinks, is a later development among the early church. The quotes I posted are from very early writers.
if we take the "Wisdom" of Proverbs 8 to be an actual person, then what do we do with "prudence" in verse 12?How would you explain the rest of the passage if it isn't referring to Jesus?
Proverbs 8:23-36 NASB
(23) "From everlasting I was established, From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.
(24) "When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no springs abounding with water.
(25) "Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth [in LXX before the mountains were settled, and before all hills, he begets me.];
(26) While He had not yet made the earth and the fields, Nor the first dust of the world.
(27) "When He established the heavens, I was there, When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep,
(28) When He made firm the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed,
(29) When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
(30) Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him,
(31) Rejoicing in the world, His earth, And having my delight in the sons of men.
(32) "Now therefore, O sons, listen to me, For blessed are they who keep my ways.
(33) "Heed instruction and be wise, And do not neglect it.
(34) "Blessed is the man who listens to me, Watching daily at my gates, Waiting at my doorposts.
(35) "For he who finds me finds life And obtains favor from the LORD.
(36) "But he who sins against me injures himself; All those who hate me love death."
The first thing about chapter 1 of John is that it says, "in the beginning the Word…" and not "in the beginning the Son…" which is what you might expect if John was putting forth the argument for eternal Sonship.I think John was putting forth His deity. I've never said John was argueing eternal son-ship, though Justin, if I remember correctly has a much different outlook on this verse than the typical modern day thinker. I posted his quote before.
my apologies if this post sounds ill-tempered in any wayI don't really have a dog in this fight, I don't believe this is an issue that really makes a hill'o beans in the end, does it? I really was just showing that the early church does have many early statements that proves they had an eternal son-ship view. I've really not taken proper time to look at this, mainly because I feel it isn't a huge deal that will change the outcome of someone's salvation.
I've taken a moment to look over my research into Jesus, here are some verses you might like to ponder. Again, I'm not argueing for anything, just interrested in the topic, and I've gone back and forth over His son-ship. I'm not trying to show proof texts, only that you might want to look at these for your own research.
Proverbs 30:4 NASB
(4) Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His son's name? Surely you know!
John 8:42 NASB
(42) Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
John 17:4-5 NASB
(4) "I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.
(5) "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
I think these verses might give a glimpse that Jesus has always been in a subordinate (for lack of a better term) role to the Father, the Father being the Head of Christ. I also have to ask again, if Christ wasn't always the Son, is He now glorified with the same glory He had before the World was?
I'm not so sure I'm gong to be able to provide some "silver bullet" verse or passage that is going to satisfy you, or me for that matter. I think Christ's eternal Son-ship, if true, seems more evident from how they relate to one another, even before His incarnation.
I can't promise that I'll have time to look into this more, I'm extremely busy, but I'm also interrested in this topic, so I may make time for it. I also have a huge headache right now, so i hope this post reads ok, please forgive if there are some incoherent remarks, I'll correct them as necessaary later.
YBIC,
Brian










