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The Eternal Sonship of Christ

Author	Comment
DayOfTheLord		#21	[-]
Posts: 1538 (09/30/08 11:07:44) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hi PeaTearGriffin , I think one would be hard pressed to say that the eternal son-ship view, as Tim thinks, is a later development among the early church. The quotes I posted are from very early writers. if we take the "Wisdom" of Proverbs 8 to be an actual person, then what do we do with "prudence" in verse 12? How would you explain the rest of the passage if it isn't referring to Jesus? Proverbs 8:23-36 NASB (23) "From everlasting I was established, From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth. (24) "When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no springs abounding with water. (25) "Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth [in LXX before the mountains were settled, and before all hills, he begets me.]; (26) While He had not yet made the earth and the fields, Nor the first dust of the world. (27) "When He established the heavens, I was there, When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep, (28) When He made firm the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, (29) When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth; (30) Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, (31) Rejoicing in the world, His earth, And having my delight in the sons of men. (32) "Now therefore, O sons, listen to me, For blessed are they who keep my ways. (33) "Heed instruction and be wise, And do not neglect it. (34) "Blessed is the man who listens to me, Watching daily at my gates, Waiting at my doorposts. (35) "For he who finds me finds life And obtains favor from the LORD. (36) "But he who sins against me injures himself; All those who hate me love death." The first thing about chapter 1 of John is that it says, "in the beginning the Word…" and not "in the beginning the Son…" which is what you might expect if John was putting forth the argument for eternal Sonship. I think John was putting forth His deity. I've never said John was argueing eternal son-ship, though Justin, if I remember correctly has a much different outlook on this verse than the typical modern day thinker. I posted his quote before. my apologies if this post sounds ill-tempered in any way I don't really have a dog in this fight, I don't believe this is an issue that really makes a hill'o beans in the end, does it? I really was just showing that the early church does have many early statements that proves they had an eternal son-ship view. I've really not taken proper time to look at this, mainly because I feel it isn't a huge deal that will change the outcome of someone's salvation. I've taken a moment to look over my research into Jesus, here are some verses you might like to ponder. Again, I'm not argueing for anything, just interrested in the topic, and I've gone back and forth over His son-ship. I'm not trying to show proof texts, only that you might want to look at these for your own research. Proverbs 30:4 NASB (4) Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His son's name? Surely you know! John 8:42 NASB (42) Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. John 17:4-5 NASB (4) "I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. (5) "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. I think these verses might give a glimpse that Jesus has always been in a subordinate (for lack of a better term) role to the Father, the Father being the Head of Christ. I also have to ask again, if Christ wasn't always the Son, is He now glorified with the same glory He had before the World was? I'm not so sure I'm gong to be able to provide some "silver bullet" verse or passage that is going to satisfy you, or me for that matter. I think Christ's eternal Son-ship, if true, seems more evident from how they relate to one another, even before His incarnation. I can't promise that I'll have time to look into this more, I'm extremely busy, but I'm also interrested in this topic, so I may make time for it. I also have a huge headache right now, so i hope this post reads ok, please forgive if there are some incoherent remarks, I'll correct them as necessaary later. YBIC, Brian
PeaTearGriffin		#22	[-]
Posts: 47 (09/30/08 11:55:14) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tim & Brian, thanks for your replies :) I don't really have a dog in this fight, I don't believe this is an issue that really makes a hill'o beans in the end, does it? Yes and No. It seems that the "Eternal Sonship" and "Incarnational Sonship" people have different views on the Trinity. Both groups believe in the standard doctrine of the Trinity, "three distinct eternal persons, yet one God." But the "eternal sonship" group tends to believe that in the Trinity, the Son is eternally begotten and that the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father (and Son). Whereas, the "incarnational sonship" group, while still believing in the Trinity of God, do not believe in the eternal begetting and proceeding of the Son and Holy Spirit. So yes, I think it is important to some degree, in that it gives us different picture on the relationship between the three persons of the Trinity. In fact, alot of people will call you a heretic if you do not believe in the eternal begetting of the Son and the eternal proceeding of the Holy Spirit. I think some people did that to John MacArthur when he once held the incarnational sonship view. I really was just showing that the early church does have many early statements that proves they had an eternal son-ship view. I read some more quotes from teh ECF's which supposedly teach this eternal sonship and eternal begetting view. However, I think alot of the quotes given are vague and in fact sometimes read like it is advocating Arianism, or at least Arianism-lite. Anywho, thanks for the help guys, I will give the Scriptures you provided some more thought Brian.
Tim		#23	[-]
Posts: 1538 (09/30/08 12:51:26) Guest Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The problem with "eternal begetting" (aside from the fact that it is not taught in Scripture) is twofold: First, it is an oxymoron. "Begetting" is not a static state, but an action verb. It involves coming into being, and absolutely demands a relationship to TIME (a time before "begetting" and a time after). Yet, "eternal" is timeless. Second, it implies an eternal subordination (inequality) of Jesus to the Father in eternity past. The ECFs explanation of "eternal generation" was a departure from logic and adventure into the philosophical thinking of the Greeks, IMO. My view is not meant to give an elaborate explanation of the inner workings of the Trinity. Rather, it is simply defining terms from their biblical usage. "Only begotten" means "only born." "Son" is a term that is relative, and requires a "father." This simple understanding of terminology is consistent with the biblical usage of these terms. It is consistent with the what Paul says about the relationship between the members of the Trinity, Jesus "did not think it robbery to be equal with God." I think it is a huge mistake to go beyond the normal sense of the terms, and dive into the realm of speculation. Regarding the ECFs generally, we never start with the ECFs. We start with the Scriptures, and develop doctrine progressively. If we have a very good case from Scripture, and the ECFs seem to disagree, we look for reasons why they may have departed from the biblical teaching. (They frequently did). Tim
PeaTearGriffin		#24	[-]
Posts: 65 (11/29/08 15:16:59) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	After reading some of Hippolytus' writings, it seems to me that he was ignorant of the eternal Sonship of Jesus. The following passage seems to say that his sonship view of Jesus was incarnational and not eternal (in the first underlined bit), although he still believed that the Word was eternally begotten (the second underlined bit). "But some one will say to me, you adduce a thing strange to me, when you call the Son the Word. For John indeed speaks of the Word, but it is by a figure of speech. Nay, it is by no figure of speech. For while thus presenting this Word that was from the beginning, and has now been sent forth, he said below in the Apocalypse, 'And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse, and He that sat upon him was Faithful and True. And in righteousness He does judge and make war. And His eyes were as flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns, and He had a name written that no man knew but He Himself. And He was clothed in a robe dipped in blood: and His name is called the Word of God.' See then, brethren, how the robe sprinkled with blood denoted in symbol the flesh, through which the impassible Word of God came under suffering, as also the prophets testify to me. … What Son of His own, then, did God send through the flesh but the Word, whom He addressed as Son because He was to be begotten in the future? And He takes the common name for tender affection among men in being called the Son. For neither was the Word, prior to incarnation and when by Himself, yet perfect Son, although He was perfect Word, only-begotten. Nor could the flesh subsist by itself apart from the Word, because it has its subsistence in the Word. Thus, then, one perfect Son of God was manifested." Hippolytus, Fragments, Part 2.3, Chap 15

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