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Eternal Security and Matt. 24:24

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Liberty83	Eternal Security and Matt. 24:24	Lead	[-]
Posts: 1 (02/04/09 20:47:33) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None I am currently teaching a Wednesday night session on Church History for my church, and we have arrived at the Calvinism/Arminianism debate (with which the PFRS site and this forum have been exceptionally helpful). Tonight's topic was Perseverance of the Saints, and we got through about half of the material, so I hope to get more in depth with the Arminian viewpoint next week. (It's an OSAS crowd.) One of the Scripture sections we covered tonight was Matt. 24:9-13. An objection was raised to the non-OSAS view, pointing out that later in the passage it says in v. 24, "... and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." This was used to say that the true elect cannot be deceived and fall away in the end times, thus those who do turn away (those referenced earlier in the passage) were not truly saved to begin with. Any thoughts on this? I apologize if it's been covered elsewhere, but I couldn't find anything when I searched the forum.
Roger		#1	[-]
Posts: 1265 (02/16/09 09:22:52) PFRS Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Liberty83 wrote: I am currently teaching a Wednesday night session on Church History for my church, and we have arrived at the Calvinism/Arminianism debate (with which the PFRS site and this forum have been exceptionally helpful). Tonight's topic was Perseverance of the Saints, and we got through about half of the material, so I hope to get more in depth with the Arminian viewpoint next week. (It's an OSAS crowd.) One of the Scripture sections we covered tonight was Matt. 24:9-13. An objection was raised to the non-OSAS view, pointing out that later in the passage it says in v. 24, "... and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." This was used to say that the true elect cannot be deceived and fall away in the end times, thus those who do turn away (those referenced earlier in the passage) were not truly saved to begin with. Any thoughts on this? I apologize if it's been covered elsewhere, but I couldn't find anything when I searched the forum. Liberty, There are two problems with the OSAS interpretation of Matthew 24:24. The first is the context. The very first words that Christ spoke in the Olivet Discourse are, "Take heed that no one deceives you." This is the major theme of the discourse. Would He give this warning if it were, after all, impossible for them to be deceived? So the first problem with the OSAS interpretation is that it negates the warning. The second problem is with the grammar. The expression in Verse 24 for "if it were possible" is ei dunatoV. Let me give you three other passages where this identiucal expression is found. ³¹ Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able [ei dunatoV] with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? ³² Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. Luke 14 The point of the parable is not that it is necessarily impossible for the first king to defeat the second king. That is something he must determine by careful consideration. It might be possible for him to defeat the second king, but to do so would require adequate military resources, a superior strategy and a carefully prepared and executed plan. If the first king does not have this, then he should wisely seek peace. ¹³ Then we went ahead to the ship and sailed to Assos, there intending to take Paul on board; for so he had given orders, intending himself to go on foot. ¹⁴ And when he met us at Assos, we took him on board and came to Mitylene. ¹⁵ We sailed from there, and the next day came opposite Chios. The following day we arrived at Samos and stayed at Trogyllium. The next day we came to Miletus. ¹⁶ For Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus, so that he would not have to spend time in Asia; for he was hurrying to be at Jerusalem, if possible [ei dunatoV], on the Day of Pentecost. Acts 20 In this passage, ei dunatoV clearly does not suggest that Paul was hurrying to be at Jerusalem against all possibility that he would arrive in time. What it suggests is that the possibility did exist to arrive in time, but not without great effort and a carefully prepared and executed plan. ¹⁴ Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. ¹⁵ Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. ¹⁶ Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion. ¹⁷ Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. ¹⁸ If it is possible [ei dunatoV], as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. ¹⁹ Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. ²⁰ Therefore " If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head." ²¹ Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. Romans 12 What do the words ei dunatoV in this context imply? Is Paul saying that it is impossible to live peaceably with all men? Well, in some times and places it IS impossible, no matter what we do. But certainly not always. ei dunatoV allows for both circumstances and scenarios. Paul's instructions are for "as much as depends on you." Accordingly, he is giving clear instructions for what our part entails. Now, with that as an introduction to the meaning of the expression "if possible" [ei dunatoV ], let's go back to Matthew 24. ²³ "Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. ²⁴ For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible [ei dunatoV ], even the elect. ²⁵ See, I have told you beforehand. ²⁶ "Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. ²⁷ For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. The point is not that it is impossible to deceive the elect. Again, wouldn't that turn these five verses into nonsense? Why would He repeatedly command them, "Do not believe it"? The point is that false christs and false prophets will have a carefully prepared and well-executed plan for deception. They will even show great signs and wonders. Many of the elect WILL BE deceived. Verse 11 says, "Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many." The only ones who are NOT deceived are those who know and obey the Lord's warnings and teachings in this chapter. That is the point. Roger
Liberty83		#2	[-]
Posts: 2 (02/19/09 11:20:10) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	That makes a lot of sense to me, and helps clarify things. Thanks! I was encouraged to see a good number of the Bible Study looking like they were seriously considering this, instead of just instantly dismissing it.

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