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How would it be able to change my mind on the facts!
I have all ready tried to show you that the Jews were zealous of the law of Moses. Acts 21 doesn't leave any room for any other understanding.
That the Jews were zealous for the Law is easily accounted for without jumping to the conclusion that Peter, James and the other apostles taught a different gospel (one that could not save), and did not know the way of justification. The period from John to the destruction of the temple was a period of transition. Also, the fact that they observed the Law did not mean that they taught obedience to the works of the Law for justification. They did not! They taught faith in Christ for justification.
This applies just as much to Paul as it does to any of the other apostles. He also kept the Law, offered sacrifices in the Temple, kept the Biblical feasts and made vows. If you reject Peter and James for doing this, you must reject Paul also.
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The other clear implication is the gentiles were not under the same teaching that the Jews were under, the Elders (zealous for the law) at the Church at Jerusalem wrote letters and sent them out to inform the gentiles that they need not keep the law, or become circumcised plain as the nose on your face! two different sets of rules.
You need to read Acts 15 again. The apostles NEVER taught ANYONE (Jew or Gentile) that they had to be circumcised and keep the Law. It was the sect (schism) of the Pharisees that did this. The apostles vigorously opposed them. It was Peter and James who put them to silence declaring
7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.
12 Then all the multitude kept silent
Do you see the words no distinction in verse 9? It was Peter who uttered those words, not Paul. None of the apostles EVER taught a different gospel other than the Gospel of the Grace of God.
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Did anyone gain salvation from following Christs teaching before the cross?
Yes. Have you never read Luke 7?
44 Then He turned to the woman and said to Simon, Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has washed My feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head.
45 You gave Me no kiss, but this woman has not ceased to kiss My feet since the time I came in.
46 You did not anoint My head with oil, but this woman has anointed My feet with fragrant oil.
47 Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.
48 Then He said to her, Your sins are forgiven.
49 And those who sat at the table with Him began to say to themselves, Who is this who even forgives sins?
50 Then He said to the woman, Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.
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if so the cross was a waste of time.
The cross took away the sins of the world past and future. Its effect was applied retroactively to those who died in faith before the Lords death. This is very basic Christian doctrine.
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Jesus never preached the cross for salvation during his ministery of the circumcision, He mentioned it but none understood and Peter was rebuked for speaking against it.
Now which is it? He never preached it or He preached it but was misunderstood? He most definitely preached it. So did John the Baptist.
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! John 1
For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many. Mark 10
Was it preached as openly or as explicitly before the cross as it was after the cross? Of course not. But that does not mean it was a different Gospel. Even Paul says that the very same Gospel that he preached was preached to Abraham.
And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the Gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, In you all the nations shall be blessed. Galatians 3:8
In fact, the Gospel was preached to Adam and Eve. It is there if you have ears to hear.
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So I would agree Christ preached a way of salvation before He became the sacrifice that made salvation possible for those he taught.
His teaching was impossible except for Him. "Be perfect like your Father in Heaven" pretty much takes that way out of the realm of mice and men.
Let me get all of this straight, Imputed. According to you, Jesus preached a way of salvation. But no one was ever saved by the way of salvation Jesus preached. The way that Jesus preached was impossible. And since the apostles preached the same Gospel that Jesus preached, they also preached an impossible way of salvation that never saved anyone? Is that really what you are asserting?
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Another fact is that Acts shows the progression of the message as Israel rejected it! once the uncircumcision was understood by the circumcision to be clean, the message changed from the strict circumcision message that most certainly followed the law.
Thats what I was afraid you were saying. You keep asserting over and over that the message changed. But when I offered to show you that the message never changed, you rejected the offer.
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I am not making this up this is exactly what the scriptures show to be true.
I know you are not making this up. It did not originate with you. It has been around a long time. As Tim explained, it originated with the Gnostic heretics.
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So until the vision of Peters the message was not going to anyone but the circumcision.
Agreed! So God had to kick Peter out of his prejudice to get him to preach the message to Gentiles. And he did precisely that. But he preached the same message to the Gentiles that he had been preaching to Jews.
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Paul was not qaulified to be part of the twelves ministery! another fact shown by Acts 1:21-23. John 20:21.
That is not correct. The ministry of the apostles was to be witnesses of the resurrection of Christ. Paul did see the resurrected Christ when he was caught up into heaven.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time. 1 Corinthians 15
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The national good news was a seperate issue! from the universal good news the message of common salvation for all men who believe, no restraints jew or gentile both come with no advantage But that was far from the understanding of the Jew until years later when the time was right for the good news to reach out from the laws restrictions of the flesh.
The national good news was not a separate issue from the universal good news. Both issues are that men are at enmity against God. The issue has a common solution: both must be saved through the atonement of Jesus Christ. The mechanism is the same for both obedience to the Gospel. And the result is the same for both resurrection from the dead and inheritance in the Kingdom of God.
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Paul was like Christ in that he understood that the earthly temporal elements of the laws had no value in salvation! but went ahead and suffered to be water baptized not for His salvation but for those He came to free from its bondage.
Paul was baptized by Ananias a devout Jew who would most certainly prescribe the shadows of the temporal.
Oh, so thats where you have been heading with this. Your complaint is about baptism. So once again, let me get this straight. God sent John to baptize for the remission of sins until Jesus was revealed as the Lamb of God. Jesus then sent the Twelve to baptize for the remission of sins until He returned from heaven to set up His kingdom. Then God sent Paul to free men from the bondage of baptism.
Is that really what I just read?
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Paul later explains his avenue of getting the message of grace through to all men! he became as those he preached to something not found in the statements of the royal nations message.
Really? Have you never read John 15?
18 If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, A servant is not greater than his master. If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My names sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me.
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Are you a nation Roger?
No. But I am a member of one of the nations to whom Jesus sent His apostles to preach the Gospel.
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. Amen. Matthew 28
15 And He said to them, Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16
46 Then He said to them, Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Luke 24
But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth. Acts 1:8
