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Hi Gregg,

Let's look at a few of the verses you posted.


Philippians 2:6-11 ( KJV ) ⁶Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: ⁷But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: ⁸And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. ⁹Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: ¹⁰That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; ¹¹And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Who was found in fashion as a man? A man? Who is the " himself of no reputation and took upon himself the form of a servant" That was made in the likeness of men? A man? Why would the Scriptures tell us that a man was made in the image of a man? What or who was it that was made in the image of men?

The reference to 1 Timothy6:13-15 is most definitely a reference to the Father.

1 Timothy 6:14-16 ( KJV )

Who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen? This is a reference to the Father, it cannot be Christ as men have seen Christ.

You were quick to dismiss the Ante-Nicene Fathers because they are not inspired. No, they were not inspired, however, several of them were taught by the apostles who were inspired. So if they expound on the Scriptures and give us more in depth information, I don't think we should just dismiss it because they were not inspired. After all are you inspired? Am I? Is your pastor? What about the translators? Those writers of the commentaries? None of these are inspired, so unless you can draw your entire theology regarding the Trinity from the Scriptures, you are relying on those who are not inspired.

Since the apostle John was given the Revelation, and since he wrote his gospel and several letters, does he understand who Jesus is? I think if we accept his writings then we have to figure he knew who Jesus was. So, the next question is, was he capable of conveying this to others? Again if we accept his writings we have to say yes. Given that, let's consider the following. Ignatius was a disciple of the apostle John. So, did John teach Ignatius correctly? Let's see what Ignatius says,

Now the virginity of Mary was hidden from the prince of this world, as was also her offspring, and the death of the Lord; three mysteries of renown,^39IV-1-39 which were wrought in silence by^40IV-1-40 God. How, then, was He manifested to the world?^41IV-1-41 A star shone forth in heaven above all the other stars, the light of Which was inexpressible, while its novelty struck men with astonishment. And all the rest of the stars, with the sun and moon, formed a chorus to this star, and its light was exceedingly great above them all. And there was agitation felt as to whence this new spectacle came, so unlike to everything else [in the heavens]. Hence every kind of magic was destroyed, and every bond of wickedness disappeared; ignorance was removed, and the old kingdom abolished, God Himself being manifested in human form for the renewal of eternal life. And now that took a beginning which had been prepared by God. Henceforth all things were in a state of tumult, because He meditated the abolition of death.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1


Be on your guard, therefore, against such persons. And this will be the case with you if you are not puffed up, and continue in intimate union with Jesus Christ our God, and the bishop, and the enactments of the apostles. He that is within the altar is pure, but he that is without is not pure; that is, he who does anything apart from the bishop, and presbytery, and deacons, such a man is not pure in his conscience.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Inasmuch as I have not been able to write to all the Churches, because I must suddenly sail from Troas to Neapolis, as the will [of the emperor] enjoins, [I beg that] thou, as being acquainted with the purpose of God, wilt write to the adjacent Churches, that they also may act in like manner, such as are able to do so sending messengers, and the others transmitting letters through those persons who are sent by thee, that thou mayest be glorified by a work which shall be remembered for ever, as indeed thou art worthy to be. I salute all by name, and in particular the wife of Epitropus, with all her house and children. I salute Attalus, my beloved. I salute him who shall be deemed worthy to go [from you] into Syria. Grace shall be with him for ever, and with Polycarp that sends him. I pray for your happiness for ever in our God, Jesus Christ, by whom continue ye in the unity and under the protection of God, I salute Alce, my dearly beloved. Fare ye well in the Lord.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1


Since therefore I have, in the persons before mentioned, beheld the whole multitude of you in faith and love, I exhort you to study to do all things with a divine harmony, while your bishop presides in the place of God, and your presbyters in the place of the assembly of the apostles, along with your deacons, who are most dear to me, and are entrusted with the ministry of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed. Do ye all then, imitating the same divine conduct, pay respect to one another, and let no one look upon his neighbour after the flesh, but do ye continually love each other in Jesus Christ. Let nothing exist among you that may divide you; but be ye united with your bishop, and those that preside over you, as a type and evidence of your immortality.

These are a few quotes from Ignatius, It seems He believed that Jesus was God. This man was taught by the Apostle John. If Jesus was not God how could John not rectify such a glaring error in Ignatius' understanding of the gospel? But there are more,

Here is a quote from Barnabas, possibly the one mentioned in the Bible,

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

This means that the man perishes justly, who, having a knowledge of the way of righteousness, rushes off into the way of darkness. And further, my brethren: if the Lord endured to suffer for our soul, He being Lord of all the world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, "Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness," (Gen. 1:26) understand how it was that He endured to suffer at the hand of men.

It seems in this verse that God is speaking to Jesus, before the foundation of the world, it also appears the God considers Him equal, in that He (God) says "in our image."

Here is a quote from Clement of Rome, the one Paul mentions in the Bible,

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Let us reverence the Lord Jesus Christ, whose blood was given for us; let us esteem those who have the rule over us;

Do we reverence anyone but God?

These are a few of the quotes of the men who were directly taught by the apostles. There are so many quotes by them and the men that they taught, regarding the Trinity and Jesus divinity. These men were not inspired but the one's who taught them were. Remember Jesus is NOT the Father, He is the Son of God, but He IS fully divine (God). Remember there are three attributes to remember, they are nature, personal attributes and order. In nature Jesus and the Father are equal, both fully divine. In personal attributes they differ, the Father is the only unbegotten God, Jesus is the begotten God. They differ also in order, The Father is the head, He is the source, the Son proceeds from the Father, so the Son is second in order. This was the understanding of the early church for the first 200 plus years, now the question has to be asked, if this is not the case, how could it be that the Apostles handed down the apostolic faith to these men and the entire church got it all wrong? Surely while still alive the apostles would have written letters to these men to correct them if this doctrine was not true.

However if you still don't accept the Ante-Nicene Fathers, here it is from Scripture. Here is a passage from Proverbs 22 from the Septuagint, the LXX, which is the copy of the Scriptures that the apostles used.

22 The Lord made me the beginning of his ways for his works. 23 He established me before time was in the beginning, before he made the earth: 24 even before he made the depths; before the fountains of water came forth: 25 before the mountains were settled, and before all hills, he begets me.22 The Lord made me the beginning of his ways for his works. 23 He established me before time was in the beginning, before he made the earth: 24 even before he made the depths; before the fountains of water came forth: 25 before the mountains were settled, and before all hills, he begets me.

Surely this is a reference to the Lord.