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A Minister that is not an elder? (a question to Tim or other leaders in the Restoration Movement)

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brentbibleboy	A Minister that is not an elder? (a question to Tim or other leaders in the Restoration Movement)	Lead	[-]
Posts: 131 (10/12/08 17:49:48) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None Hello, guys! I have noticed in the Restoration Movement--although I see this goverment in other churches as well--that they tend to have a position called Minister. This Minister is not considered an Elder in the strictest sense. They are the primary teacher of the church and appear to be a figure head, of sorts, and yet fall under the ultimate authority of the Elders. What is the scriptural basis for the position known as Minister, Senior Minister or whatever other designation? From my reading and understanding, it is the Elders who are the teachers of the church; and there may be one or more with special honor in the eldership because of their extra labour in preaching and teaching. With that in mind, why do some churches have a hired Minister--not an Elder--who is the primary teacher? Where does this idea come from? Bless all here, Brent
Tim		#1	[-]
Posts: 1552 (10/12/08 19:41:20) Guest Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Brent, You are correct that a lot of churches in the Restoration Movement have a "minister" who is not considered an "elder." The claim is that the "minister" is what the NT calls an "evangelist." I happen to disagree with this position, and when I took my present position I made it clear to the church that there was no such thing as a "minister" who was distinct from an "elder." I also wrote a paper on the subject for our church website. I am one of the "elders," whose primary responsibility is preaching and teaching. We also have other elders who serve other leadership functions. There is no difference between a "pastor," "elder," or "oveseer." The term "overseer" is the real job (what). "Elder" describes the essential qualification (who). And "Pastor" describes the manner in which the job is done (how). Keep in mind that Oasis Christian Church is totally independent. While it was started by an RM "minister" decades ago, we are not in any way tied to the Restoration Movement today. We simply have SOME things in common with RM churches, and are willing to fellowship with and cooperate with some of them. My ordination extends from THIS independent local church alone, not any movement, body of churches, or denomination. Tim
brentbibleboy		#2	[-]
Posts: 132 (10/13/08 09:04:20) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Thanks, Tim! I have read your position paper and that is the view I hold as well. I actually learned those same things in the Bible/Bible Conference Church that I used to meet with. I have been attending an ICC for a few months now, and I was surprised by this Snr. Minister position---and the surprise turned into confusion at the apparent widespread nature of that position within the Restoration Movement. The 'gist' of the RM, in my understanding, was to return to pristine Christianity; to wipe away the accumulation of human titles, creeds and traditions that stood in opposition to scriptural truth; so I had a hard time understanding the widespread nature of this position---something with little scriptural support. Anyway, thanks for your explanation! One other thing, if I may: you mentioned ordination; that brings to mind another question that I have had. In Scripture, we see where the Elders of the church were appointed to their oversight positions e.g. Titus was dispatched to Crete to appoint Elders in the cities there. My overall question is what is the apostolic teaching---or pattern/example---on ordaining/appointing Elders to lead the churches? Can only an established Elder appoint another Elder? Maybe this will make more sense if I just give an example: A group of Christians want to start meeting together. They come together in worship and observe the commands of scripture---but they realize that one of the apostolic traditions is that Elders are to rule and shepherd the local believers. They want to obey this and establish an Eldership. How do they do this? Must they reach out to Leaders in other churches so that those existing Elders can appoint Elders for them in this new body? Can there be a sort of organic self-appointment from within the body, as things naturally develop and those with the gift of teaching and leading naturally rise up? What if an Elder appoints another Elder, but then it comes to light that the first Elder was never correctly ordained (say, they just self-ordained themselves)--does the newly appointed Elder retain their Elder status or is it invalidated, if you will? I know there are a lot of points and questions there. I guess I am just trying to get the overall truth in regards to appointments of leaders. Again, taking Titus as an example: it seems that an existing, apostolically appointed Elder had to be dispatched to appoint other Elders in Crete; if that HAD to be done, it seems it would be invalid to appoint Elders in other ways---say, by the self-appointment scenarios I mentioned above. I really don't feel I have a good understanding of this. I don't think apostolic succession is valid---especially in the Roman and Eastern Catholic scheme---but is there anything at all to having a line of validly appointed Elders in the grand scheme of things? I would be MUCH obliged if you could provide an understanding of this to me. Thanks, Tim! God bless, Brent
Tim		#3	[-]
Posts: 1553 (10/14/08 05:38:21) Guest Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Brent, I don't think I can answer your question with any authority. The fact is, the appointment of elders in the NT that we know of was by Apostles, or their assistants, whom they sent for that purpose. We have no Apostles today. On the other hand, I know of no specific case where current elders "appointed" other elders. But, it seems hard to imagine that as the churches multiplied, that Apostles made the rounds and appointed all of the elders. Timothy and Titus did do some of that, but on a very limited scale. That model could not have lasted very long. We would have to assume that new elders were added after the first generation died off. The question of exactly HOW this was done is left open in Scripture, as far as I know. I have not done a study of the ECF practice on this topic, so, I can't help much there either. I would say that the most likely correct approach is that the current elders constantly evaluate the lives of the men in their church, and when it is obvious that someone has proven themselves fit (based on the criteria in Timothy and Titus), that this person be asked to fill that role (with the congregations' approval). However, you also have to keep in mind that Churches are "corporations" in the eyes of the Law. And in order to act as such, they must adopt a charter, and by-laws, that clearly define HOW offices are to be held. And in most cases, unless they are controlled by a denominational headquarters, the congregations is the final word by Law. Therefore, they need to have a clearly defined voting system in place, where the congregation approves or disapproves the elders. As to starting from scratch, I would say that no outside authority is needed. I do not believe in "Apostolic Succession," or place any stock in the idea of a continuous succession of ordained men. When a congregation has no ordained elders, and when someone in their midst has proven himself worthy, the congregation ought to ordain him, IMO. In churches with a "congregational" model, the congregation has the last word, after having examined a candidate's life. The important thing about an elder is that he meet the qualifications, not that he was ordained by someone with certain credentials. And the judge of his life is the congregation that knows him best. I don't think it is necessary for ANY person with ministerial credentials to be present at any ordination, only that the congregation has tested this man, and approves of His character, and asks him to be in such a leadership role. Keep in mind that these are just my personal thoughts based on the fact that the Scripture is pretty silent on the subject. Tim

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